tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8332466.post4071196795929509169..comments2023-08-08T09:38:55.103-04:00Comments on [M]etabrain[E]ntry[L]og: On unschoolingMelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15598380941676945491noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8332466.post-15593239294417251602007-04-22T15:43:00.000-04:002007-04-22T15:43:00.000-04:00This may not be directly pertient to the discussio...This may not be directly pertient to the discussion, but I just met an airline mechanic who had gotten all of his technical training at a hands-on school for airline mechanics, and then with on the job training at his first job. When we think of schooling, we tend to imagine the abstract, science-based curriculum that 'real engineers' are taught. But it would be really interesting to see how the process is different when the subject is much more concrete and hands on.<BR/><BR/> -mattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8332466.post-67975019487116836592007-04-21T23:10:00.000-04:002007-04-21T23:10:00.000-04:00I know that I personally do very little, even of w...<I>I know that I personally do very little, even of what I'm really interested in, without something to push me to do it.</I><BR/><BR/>My experience with this: I'm doing <I>something</I> at any given time.<BR/><BR/>A simple algorithm that has worked well for me in the past: if I'm spending all of my time doing something that isn't satisfying, quit doing it. Eventually you'll start doing something that you both want to do and is satisfying.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8332466.post-74077933452833986442007-04-21T20:09:00.000-04:002007-04-21T20:09:00.000-04:00Boris - I've got the same question about controlle...Boris - I've got the same question about controlled experiments. Let me do some digging and try to find some unbiased (or at least a range of diversely biased) sources. <BR/><BR/>As for people learning to value things on their own - I think people <I>do</I> this on their own regardless, but it's possible for them not to <I>learn</I> that's what they're doing for many years. <BR/><BR/>There's a big difference between being aware of the process of value-assignment and evaluation and knowing that it is a subjective measurement and having The Authority Figure declare an absolute "goodness" to your work.<BR/><BR/>Nikki - That's actually exactly what Kohn says happens with a behaviorist approach. You develop a Pavlovian response to enforced incentives, and when the incentives disappear, so does interest in the task, since the task and rewards are psychologically tied together.Melhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15598380941676945491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8332466.post-34031993574378461492007-04-21T20:00:00.000-04:002007-04-21T20:00:00.000-04:00I feel like you're assuming that everyone is as se...I feel like you're assuming that everyone is as self-motivated as you. I know that I personally do very little, even of what I'm really interested in, without something to push me to do it. Of course, a group of other people is as good a motivator as a class or a professor, but I still need some sort of push, and I know I'm not the only one. Some of us do have a high enough activation energy that left completely to our own devices we would accomplish very little.nikkihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12655022025391097046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8332466.post-31075613401865867412007-04-21T16:37:00.000-04:002007-04-21T16:37:00.000-04:00All right. Nice post... now I'll attack it for a b...All right. Nice post... now I'll attack it for a bit:<BR/><BR/><I>"The consensus from the unlearning side seems to be that after an initial adjustment period of up to a few months, the pace of learning kicks up to an even faster rate than before"</I><BR/>What is this consensus based on? have there been controlled experiments? The only time I've seen an experiment of this sort was in a school for the gifted that had a similar paradigm. If the studies you're familiar with have similar set-ups they're very systematically biased. If there's actually good evidence that people adjust well, I'll raise one eyebrow in surprise and ask you for a book recommendation.<BR/><BR/><I>"In the absence of an enforced intellectual currency system (this paper is worth 100 points, your quiz was worth a B), you learn how to assess and create value in your own life and in the lives of others."</I><BR/>People learn this anyways. People have to learn to value their own opinions themselves. There will always be some outside power that one can listen to. People will always express their feelings about one's work (at least partially). Value <I>will</I> come from others if one allows it. If 'structured' evaluations are removed things will be valued in some other way (eg smoking is valued as cool). This will be the case as long as one doesn't consciously decide that they will be self-driven towards their own goals.<BR/><BR/><I>"Through making their own structures, students learn how to appreciate the reasons behind deadlines, regular meetings, and even the inefficiencies of bureaucracies."</I><BR/>This part I agree with altogether too much. this is what makes spiral learning beautiful. Organizing chaos is easily one of the most valuable processes I know of to learning.<BR/><BR/>Anyhow, thanks for your post and I'm sure we'll be talking... :-)Boris Dieseldorffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11818300387729526308noreply@blogger.com